Mike Capuzzi: Welcome back to the Author Factor podcast. My guest today is Eric Gee. Eric has administered personality based life coaching for more than 20 years and has built a successful education company that uses his personality typing method to better the lives of more than 20,000 students, parents, and teachers. As creator of the Utopia project website and the Utopia 16 assessment, he has disseminated his method to over half a million users since the website's creation in 2016. Eric just published his first book, The Power of Personality:  Unlock the Secrets to Understanding Everyone in Your Life, Including Yourself. Eric, welcome to the show.

Eric Gee: Thank you for having me, Mike.

Mike Capuzzi: I just barely touched on your background. Can you tell us a little bit more about your journey and what you've been doing all these years and how you help folks?

Eric Gee: You know, it started off as I wanted to be a writer, so I studied screenwriting. I went to UCLA. I did all that. And, you know, I really liked it. And then I just fell into a lot of different things. You know, I started off working at a golf course out of college, and this is out of college, not out of high school, out of college. You know, just sitting there writing screenplays, my feet up, sending people out to the tee box. You know, I did a radio show, and for some reason that all kind of came together, and I became a business owner, and I started my own education company, which I ran for about ten years.

Eric Gee: But through all of that, I really liked personality typing methodology. Like, maybe because I always thought I was a little odd or a little different. I always say weird now, but I can't say weird anymore, you know, because last couple days, right, yeah, I can't do that. So, yeah, just different. And so I was into the personality typing, and I studied that since I was about 17. And I was able to use that when I started my own education company to teach my teachers how to work with their students better and understand them better. And then it just so happened that after I closed that company, I started getting back into screenwriting and writing more pilots. And I joined a writing group where I made a good amount of friends.

Eric Gee: And we'd go to the bar afterwards and just start talking about different things. And personality types came up and people just started talking about it. Like, I could see that I caught on pretty much like wildfire, but I still refused to write a book, even though a friend suggested I write a book on it. And I was like, no, no, I'm going to keep writing these pilots about sex addicted rabbits and stuff. And so she put the ideas in her show or one of the episodes for the show she was writing on. And I was like, oh, okay. Like, if it's that popular, you know, or at least it's a popular enough idea where you just throw it on mainstream television, then I probably should write a book on it. And I did, and it got published this year.

Mike Capuzzi: Very good. And again, congratulations. I want to talk about your author slash publishing journey, because you went with a traditional publisher. So we're going to talk about that here in a moment. But I want to focus a little time on the power of personality because, again, I haven't read it yet. We help business owners publish books, and one of the things I always encourage our clients to do, they're writing a book to promote themselves and their business, right? So it's like a lead magnet, lead generation type of book. But I always encourage them to create what I call their special sauce, what makes them unique, what makes them different, even though they're probably a high probability that what they do is similar to what other people do, but putting that different spin. You've done that in this book, have you not? Like, there's a lot of books out there on personality traits and characteristics, but you came up with your own brand, if you will, did you not?

Eric Gee: Right? I mean, I think the animals, the animal types, I use animals to symbolize the different personality types. I think that stands out quite a bit. I think most of the time, I think people are familiar with MBTI or Myers Briggs, which is like four letters, and people always forget the four letter combination. So it's a variant of that, but I've evolved it quite a bit. Even the way that people figure out what type they are is a different kind of methodology. And so I base mine more on values and less on what we see externally, because I feel like, in my experience, we're really quick to accept external differences like that. We can see, like, this person's more structured, this person's more spontaneous. But at the end of the day, the things that really separate us are that we value things differently and we prioritize our values differently.

Eric Gee: And in a sense, that makes huge difference.

Mike Capuzzi: Quite interesting to me. Now, tell me a bit more about who you wrote the book for. So again, my audience is typically business owners, entrepreneurs, corporate leaders. Is there a set of ideal readers for your book that you were thinking about as you were writing it that would really, this is a book that they should and must read?

Eric Gee: You know, it reminds me of someone I was talking to about his podcast that he said, you know, you shouldn't always, or you should never say the audience is everybody, even though you're so tempted to. And I was just about. I was really tempted to say it's about for everyone. I would say it's for anyone who has ever felt different or had issues with feeling, like, the values and the things that are pushed by society and the people around them are different than their own, or anyone who's had someone close to them feel that same thing. Because I think it's for. I think we both need to know whether you're on the majority side of personalities or the minority side of personalities, how the other person's feeling, because I think that difference in or our differences in personality really cause the conflicts that we have in the world.

Mike Capuzzi: So is it also a book, Eric, that if somebody is looking to get into a relationship with somebody, whether it's a business relationship, a personal relationship, would it help that person better understand the other person?

Eric Gee: Yes. You know, the number one thing I'm asked is, like, oh, like, what's my perfect type? Who's my soulmate? You know? And, like, that's the number one thing. Doesn't matter what situation. I mean, people will say, oh, so who should I hook up with? And I think, in general, what I always like to say, which is the safe answer, which is you can find, like, close connection. And I don't necessarily mean romantic, but you can find close connection with any personality type. There's no such thing as a perfect personality type. However, the difference or the differences that you may or may not have with that person are going to be consistent based on your personality type and the reasons why you get along as well. So I think as long as you're okay with those differences and the source of that conflict, then it's fine.

Eric Gee: But if you're not, then you should probably go elsewhere.

Mike Capuzzi: Okay. And I'm going to ask you, just give just a little taste of these animal archetypes that you've come up with. Just give us an example or two, just to kind of tease our listeners.

Eric Gee: You know, I think the fox is the easiest personality type to describe. Just because I think when you call someone a fox or foxy, I think we understand what that means, right? Like, kind of shamelessly clever, trickster, shrewd, maybe not necessarily at the highest level or the most diligent when it comes to academics, but when it comes to, like, pure street smarts, like, you think of, like, I use a lot of fictional characters in the book, as well as just, like, when I talk about it, because it's very easy for people to connect like, oh, like a fox is like James Bond. I know what James Bond is like, or like Han Solo or that roguish character. Now, obviously, when you meet them in real life, they’re not going to be that extreme as a fictional character. But you’d be surprised. I have an uncle whose a fox, and he pretty much acts like that, which is perfect for his job, which is, they’re really great in sales. So my uncle is in commercial real estate. They’re just really good at taking a situation and adjusting and adapting for every single outcome.

Mike Capuzzi: Yeah, yeah. I thought, again, I thought it was quite interesting that you decided that approach. I think it makes a lot of sense. I think it makes a, you know, a topic that a lot of people are at least aware of. It makes it different. It makes it that much more either understandable and relatable. It's funny you mentioned foxes. I live in an area, Eric.

Mike Capuzzi: I see three to five foxes everywhere. I don't know what's going on. It's, like, inundated with fox. And I like foxes. They're cute, and they drive my dog nuts. We have a fence in our yard. The fox always stays on one side and literally teases my dog. She's going nuts, and he's just sitting there.

Mike Capuzzi: She's just sitting there totally teasing my dog. So as soon as you said that, and that's the power of creating the special sauce like you did, like, it instantly connected with me, even just on this short little interview. Very nice job.

Eric Gee: I'm sure you've seen a lot of that's actually probably the most common relationship is like, well, so Fox is a specific personality type, but there are, like, four big, large groups or I guess, main groups. And that's probably the most common relationship is the one that the fox is from, which I call hunters, and the one that a dog, I guess, would become or would come from, which is called gatherers, which is like, when you think of the odd couple, you know, you think of, like, one making fun of the other and joking around, and they only be very stable, secure, and friendly, and we see that all the time. Right. It's crazy.

Mike Capuzzi: And it's hilarious when I see it, like, anyway, it drives my dog nuts. I don't think she appreciates it, but, all right, so you're one of the few. You know, I would say most of our authors on this podcast are self published. However, you went a much more traditional route with an agent, with a traditional publisher to get your book done. So I really want to explore that more because we don't have too many guests that do that, so take us back in time. First of all, I want to know kind of the timeline of that whole thing, but also, what made you seek out an agent in the first place, Brian?

Eric Gee: You know, I actually talked to a good friend of mine, so a good friend of mine was about, and I'll call her out now. Jamie Jo Huong. She has a great book, by the way, called my father the Panic Killer. That's out of as well. Just giving her a shout out. But she was about six months, I'd say seven months ahead of me in the timeline, maybe nine months. No, I forgot. So I asked her, basically, and she told me she had experienced self publishing.

Eric Gee: So her first book was self published, and her new book, she went the agent route. Now, granted, it's fiction, so it's a little different than how you query the agent, but for the most part, it. It's similar. And so she just basically told me, well, you know, if you choose the self published route, this is probably what you have to deal with. And if you choose the agent route, this is what you have to deal with. And it's really just, which one are you okay with, you know? Cause they both obviously have good things and bad things about each aspect. So, you know, when I heard that and she said, basically, she said, if you go the self published route, you have to do a lot of the promotional work yourself. You have to do a lot of the logistics yourself, or I guess all of it, really.

Eric Gee: And whereas you went the agent route, you wouldn't have to do any of that, but you'd have to pitch yourself. You have to do a lot of the whole, here's my proposal, reject me if you want, and then face a lot of rejection. And I was like, you know what? I'm a screenwriter. Or at least my background wise, I've gotten rejected a lot. So I think I'm okay with this. And I'm lazier, so I'm not okay with this. So I'll go with the agent route. And that's why I chose it.

Mike Capuzzi: So, I mean, and that's no easy feat. I mean, even getting fine. Did you have to go through a number of agents to land on the agent?

Eric Gee: Yeah. You know anyone who's listening, who is thinking about that route? It's. I'm not. Both are great. But I would say that if you go the agent route, then just get used to rejection. You just have to be fine with querying. I queried probably, I don't know, 50, 60, 70 agents, you know, you, and I've been told you do, like, maybe 30 at a time. And this is after, like, researching them and going like, oh, this is a great agent for me.

Eric Gee: You know, I think they would love this book. And then you go through the whole, like, each agent has a different query process. Now, they are kind of similar, but they also are a little different. So I went through that and just did 30 got. Most of them will not contact you, even though they say they're going to contact you after, like, three months, two to three months. They probably won't. Some did, you know, with a very polite rejection, others won't. And I generally think it's probably because they probably don't read it because they just get a stack of these in their email and they're not reading any of them except for maybe a few, or they just don't respond.

Eric Gee: But at the end of the day, you just can't take that personally. And then once that three month period is up, I did it again. And then I finally got an agent who was interested, Steve Harris. He's great. And then it goes, the whole process with publishers, and then you repeat the process. But the nice thing I'll say is the agents might never get back to you, or they might get back to you in three months. Publishers get back right away. They respond to your agent within hours, which is kind of nice.

Eric Gee: Generally, even if it's a rejection, they'll respond with, oh, hey, thanks. Great. I'm not interested in this one, but send me the next one.

Mike Capuzzi: So how many publishers did he have to contact on your behalf?

Eric Gee: What did that look like I did? I don't know the exact number, but it was quite a few. You know, I mean, I had to adjust my pitch letter because, you know, when you send it out to publishers, you essentially use the same one that you sent to agents. But. But then you do have to modify it a bit. So I had to modify mine as well just to make it more. And I wouldn't say enticing, but just to, you know, it's, it's a big thing, right. How you portray yourself is pretty important and portray your work, so. But, yeah, that was a process in and of itself.

Eric Gee: But, you know, it got done. And I would say that if you're okay, that's the hardest part of writing a book, I think, is that whole process of getting an agent, because that takes, like, four or five months, six months where you're just, like, waiting for them to email you back and stuff.

Mike Capuzzi: And from, let's just say day one was the idea that your friend encouraged you to write this book. How long before you had a book deal? How long was that timeline?

Eric Gee: I would. Well, okay, so when my friend who wrote the tv show encouraged me, there was quite a bit of time from that. See, when I actually started writing, but I'd say from the writing portion to the book deal, where I literally started, I believe I started in 2021, the summer of 2021. Um, and then I was. I got a book deal in the fall of 2022. Yes. But even then, it's. It's a.

Eric Gee: It's a long process. Even once you get the deal, then it takes a while, and then you have to sign your contract, and then it's about an 18 month wait for the book to actually come out about. So that's what I would tell people, is it's not a short process. It's not like, oh, here. Here you go. You know, whereas at least with self publishing, you kind of control that timeline. Um, so that's.

Mike Capuzzi: I just interviewed. Now, it's a different animal. Not to use your vernacular, but I just interviewed a woman. I was on her podcast literally two months ago as a guest, and she's a marketing, a fractional CMO, and she heard about the kind of. She read some of my. After that interview, she read some of my books, and she just reached out to me two weeks ago and said, hey, Mike, I just published my. Her book is done. It's on Amazon.

Mike Capuzzi: The Kindle's done. Two months from no idea that she knew she wanted to write this book. Now, again, it's a shorter book, and it's designed to be a very specific type of book, but it just compares and contrasts. Yes, self publishing, you're in total control, which could be a good thing or a bad thing. Timeline is a lot shorter. I found it interesting you said, Eric, that you didn't necessarily want to deal with all the promotion, but every published author, traditionally published author I've spoken to has always said it's still on your back. You're the one on the podcast today. Right.

Mike Capuzzi: Book promotion, even with a traditional publisher, still falls on your back, right?

Eric Gee: No, no, exactly. And that's what I'm finding out, which I don't mind. I think it's more the thought of organizing the promotion, and you have to worry about some of the logistics of going, I guess, through Amazon, probably, and Amazon Publishing. Yeah, I guess it's also one of those things where people like support or that feeling like you're being supported from an entity outside of yourself.

Mike Capuzzi: Also, there's some cachet. I mean, you're with a real publisher. You know, there's some cachet. I've published 20 of my own books, self-published, 20. I've always thought about maybe I should try, you know, and I know some people in the industry, and. But I'm too much of a control freak. First of all, the book title I come up with is the book title I want to use. And I know there's so much control with the publisher.

Mike Capuzzi: But one of the things I've heard over and over again from traditionally published authors is that these days, probably one of the number one critical factor in them choosing you is your social media presence, is the following that you have behind you. They want to know that when this book launches, they're selling thousands of copies. Did you come across that?

Eric Gee: Yeah, I definitely feel, especially for nonfiction, that's a huge thing. Nonfiction is all about what you have, like, in terms. So I have a website, and our website gets a lot of hits, and that was probably one of the most appealing parts of my pitch, aside from it being on a television show on Apple TV.

Mike Capuzzi: Oh, nice.

Eric Gee: So those two things. I mean, one episode of a television show on Apple TV. So if anyone wants to watch mythic quest, please do. I heard that. You know, the funny thing is, I haven't even watched that episode, which is. I don't know why I haven't. I'm such a terrible friend. But.

Eric Gee: Yeah, but I heard it's really funny, and, you know, it uses my animal types, so that's good. But yeah.

Mike Capuzzi: So, a couple questions. You say you're a writer. Are you? One and done, you know?

Eric Gee: No, I mean, I have a great idea. I mean, it's not even, like, something like, great, as in, like, I'm brilliant for thinking about it. It literally is the next logical step, which would be writing a book on relationships and how, like. Cause everyone asks. And for essentially, my book is a guidebook to teach people how to type basically tells you how to become the test, because I'm not a huge fan of tests. You know, people take these tests, but it's like they're cookie cutter tests, and then they're like, oh, this is who I am. And then they. And then they listen to all the prescriptions in the book.

Eric Gee: I'm like, well, what if the test got it wrong? You know? Like, it's not like the end all end all. So the book is essentially teaching people how to be better people, readers. So thus, the next logical book would be something a little bit more prescriptive, like. Okay, so now that you know that you're the, uh, let's say a panda, this, these are the types that you probably will get along with for this reason, and you'll probably not get along with them for this reason, like, basically a relationship book. And that's what those kind of books.

Mike Capuzzi: Can do quite well, as you well know.

Eric Gee: Yeah.

Mike Capuzzi: Especially if you have a sort of a new spin on it. Would you still go the traditional published route, or would you do your own thing?

Eric Gee: You know, that's a good question. I'd have to think about it. Um, I probably would do the traditional publisher route just because it's what I know. And I think people tend to, like, gravitate to what they know. But I'd consider maybe self-publishing if that was based on the factors that I was looking at. Better for me.

Mike Capuzzi: Yeah. Listen, and who knows? Your agent may want that second book, and the publisher may want that second book.

Eric Gee: So I hope so.

Mike Capuzzi: And that, and that oftentimes can turn into quite a nice lucrative thing. So what about, Eric? Anything you learned, either when it comes to the whole publisher agent journey or the writing journey, the fact that you're a writer is interested, brings an interesting slant to all this. Is there something that you've learned in this process that when it comes time to do that second book, you will do something differently? You would think about something differently because you learned about it here?

Eric Gee: Well, I would definitely say within that pitch letter, that initial pitch letter to publishers, I definitely would. What I learned was that the audience that you're sending to knows a lot more about your work or the substance of your work than you think. And by that, I mean, I think the first pitch letter I sent out to publishers was very general about, like, oh, this is what personality typing is versus this is what is. And this is mine, and this is why mine is better, or at least a new thing or more evolved. Right. I think that's probably very important, is just know that the audience that's reading it, you don't have to generally educate them on, like, the basics. You know, find out, like you said, what's that secret sauce? Find out. You yourself, your substance is not enough.

Eric Gee: It has to be where, why is your substance so different and so special? That's what you have to really put forth if you go that route. Um, and I, specifically for agents as well, when you query agents, but also publishers.

Mike Capuzzi: Yeah, like you said, they're both inundated. Right? And if something's not popping out and saying this is. This is the kind of book that gets them to pay attention, which is, again, what I said when you sent it. You know, you sent me the details. I'm like, you know, we've worked with hundreds of clients. I've interviewed hundreds of people on my podcast, and I don't say it every time, but, like, as I was reading about your book, like, yeah, you've done some pretty cool thing here. So what about promotion of it? What have you learned as far as book promotion? So the book is fairly new. It's only a couple months old, correct?

Eric Gee: Right. It's, uh. Yeah, it came out in April, so. Yeah, a few months old. Yeah.

Mike Capuzzi: What, um, what's been your number one way to get that, you know, the word out about it?

Eric Gee: You know, I would say hire your own publicist. I mean, I know the publishing company has a publicist, and they'll give you one, but definitely hire your own if you're going to go that route in terms of, like, because they're really great at getting you on specific things that within their network. I was able to go on the news to promote my book and talk about it. I mean, I say promotion. I'm not great with promotion, but I do like talking clearly. And so as long as. That's another thing. As long as you can blend those two together.

Eric Gee: If you don't necessarily love promotion. But I do think you can generally get yourself to love to talk about yourself or at least your work. Like, just think of it that way. Yeah. Yeah. So those two things. Be yourself and hire a publicist.

Mike Capuzzi: Well, publicist oftentimes, like you're saying. I mean it as you're finding out now, because you're in that, you know, you're in that infant stage of just being published. That's the whole thing. You know, those two years of doing everything you did to get to this point, really, I, you know, this is the hard work now. Like, people know about this book and read the book and, you know, so. And share the book. So hopefully we'll help you here. So, Eric, as we get ready to wrap up here, I know it's still fresh and young, but again, you bring an interesting background.

Mike Capuzzi: You've gone an interesting journey so far. You're on the author factor podcast. The author factor is about the impact of being a published nonfiction book author. What has the author factor meant to you so far?

Eric Gee: You know, I think it's kind of like Dumbo, right, where he has the feather and they give him the feather, and it gives him a lot of confidence, because he's like, oh, this is why I can fly. Right? And it's so funny how when you're writing these ideas and you're in that stage, you're trying to get them accepted either by agents, publishers, or just the public. If you're self publishing, you're just trying to, like, feel great about the work that you do. And I think just having a book out and having people purchase it, ideally, and read it and tell you how, like, I would say they're going to tell you how great it is, but they're going to say like, oh, this was pretty cool. Just pretty cool is good enough for me. Um, I think that it's kind of like, it gives you that confidence even though you yourself were already deserving of it. Maybe it gives that extra kind of like, you know, all, all authors in general are insecure. So I think, um, it gives you at least a little bit more security knowing that that's probably the factor for me.

Mike Capuzzi: Well, it shouldn't come any, as any shock that you, you would use Dumbo and elephant as your metaphor.

Eric Gee: That's right.

Mike Capuzzi: I will tell you, I've never heard that. The way you described it, though, is awesome. I mean, maybe some of my audience won't even know who Dumbo is. And the fact that, oh, gosh, you just brought me back to my childhood. Right?

Eric Gee: Yes.

Mike Capuzzi: And it's a great brushstroke for describing it. Nice job.

Eric Gee: And writers also like Dumbo because there's that scene where he's like on an acid trip. So that's that alone. People should watch it.

Mike Capuzzi: I don't remember. That was that. I don't remember. But I do remember the book and I do remember the movie. So. Wow, you really took me back there for a moment. So, Eric, how can our listeners learn more about you? Where's the best place to get the book? All that good stuff so you, I.

Eric Gee: Guess they always say you can get the book wherever you can buy books. You know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, you know, if you're in the LA area, go to skylight books. It's my favorite bookstore here in LA where I'm at located. But learning more about me, you can go to. I have two sites. One. And people are like, why do you have two sites? Like, well, the first one came about because it was my original site and it was more about articles from people, about personality typing articles, including from myself. But you can also go on that site to actually take a personality assessment to figure out what type you are.

Eric Gee: However, I always put the disclaimer that it's just a cookie cutter test once again. So please buy the book if you really want to know. But that site is utopiaproject.com, and that's utopia, like YouTube. So u y o u, topia project.com. and then if you go to projectutopia.com, comma, you can find out about my life coaching and my writing coaching and how to hire me that way.

Mike Capuzzi: Very good. Well, Eric, listen, congratulations. I think you have a lot of success as a nonfiction book author ahead of you. So nice job.

Eric Gee: Oh, thanks so much for having me, Mike.